Trying to make the forum a better place! - Opinions needed

[Bruceper]

As many of you are aware, this forum is a place where users come for support, and that's fine.

What I want to know, is what you would like to see to make you come back to the forum more often to share ideas, code, tips, tricks, mods and much more so we can

1) increase traffic at the forum
2) increase interest in the forum
3) better our own sites
4) increase our income from our sites
5) increase traffic on our own sites
6) increase the number of mods/tips/ideas etc

If some of you aren't aware, I am a moderator on the forum even if my user title doesn't say that I am I know that doesn't give me a heck of a lot of ability to do stuff, but I can always ask for other things to be done.

So lets try and help each other out, let me know your opinions and thoughts.

Do you want free stuff? If so, then what?
Do you want to see certain mods? Describe them.
Are you willing to pay extra for some features/mods/databases/services? If so for what?

Tell me what you want/need out of this forum and I'll see what I can do.

[piet]

I think the forum has to be a place where we can get freebies and addons.

Now a lot of addons need to be paid for.
A big improvement would be the release of more free templates.
and more language supported.

And i think the response on some questions can be better.
Some questions takes to long to get a answer on, and that is not a matter of life and dead but .....

Overall the forum is nice, but we could improve it a lot.

And i hope we will get a good manual soon on indexu.

regards

piet

[allendevans]

Bruce,

I believe this forum needs to be "professionally" run (no insult intended) as an authoritative source for FAQs, HOWTOs, Install Guides, etc. LINUX (GNU, etc.) makes this all work by empowering authors (Matt Welsh being one of the best known) to create and own a FAQ, HOWTO, or other guide in which they can take pride of ownership.

Now, IndexU is a for-profit operation and the company must somehow foster authorship of these guides. It's a tough proposition. Reading the forum for just two-three hours today I've found several "indexu gurus" (my word choice) post "final forum message"s citing how they feel burned out and abused by both the IndexU company and the IndexU community. Being for-profit, IndexU can't simply say RTFM to simple, foolish questions, but the company may not also be able to pay these gurus adequately to produce the documentation that (IMO) seems to be sorely lacking.

So what's the point? I believe IndexU needs to embrace these authors, provide free software updates, allow selected authors to beta test updates, suggest modifications (and provided written in-code recognition of contributors while not implying a GPL slant), and help a large number of gurus "fall in love with" the code and concept of IndexU software.

LINUX (et al) isn't great software because people are paid to improve it: it's great because people love it and take pride in improving it.

Ok, maybe it's sappy. But those are my two cents.

Allen.

OH! And most important. The authors would either:
(1) donate their expertise to the community at large (similar to FAQs, etc) or
(2) maintain GPL ownership of their articles (no out of pocket costs to the company; author retains possibility for sale of article to future publisher)

[Bruceper]

It is an authoritative source, unfortunately it's a forum, which means that while it is somewhat organized, it still requires users to look and search for what they want. If you don't enter in the correct words then you don't get the results you want.

I don't think a user has ever been stopped from creating a site or page or help file or anything of that nature that would help users to get what they want. Users simply haven't chosen to do so that I know of. There is one site that is run by a former programmer that has a number of mods/fixes, and then mine. Those are the only ones that I know of.

Yes IndexU is for-profit, as are most businesses in this world. But the issue arises in the fact that no matter how much anyone does, people refuse to pay attention to it. You can clearly see that in a recent thread where a customer decided it was acceptable to call me at my home at midnight. If he had bothered to read the guide he would have found the answer in less than 30 seconds. He listened to me ***** at him for approx that amount of time before I hung up on him.

Paying for documentation is an expensive process. It takes a lot of time and no one will do the documentation the way the owner(s) want unless they do it themselves. I have already told them I would do it, but it's on my dime as far as I know. Due to the time involved I may just end up charging for it. But it's going to be the best damn manual that I can do and is already undergoing proofing and commenting by a third party even though it's barely complete. It's going to be VERY large (approx 100-130 pages) and should detail pretty much everything in the admin panel that I can find.

There is also the fact (and this in no way is critical of the owners) that I do not have access to the web site so I can't add the guide to the members area. Or add it to the FAQ so that users wanting to buy the script can check it out and see how easy it can be to install a script.

So I created indexusupport to give a helping hand to others by dosing out the tips and hints that I have found because I can't sticky every post on this forum that's good, otherwise it defeats the purpose of having a forum!

IndexU does provide free updates to registered users, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Beta testing is done via the SVN version and every registered user is able to access it with their email address and license number. Contributions by users, as far as I know, have always had credit attributed to them.

I do get fed up with users because they haven't read the forum or the install guide and I do tell them to RTFM because it answers most of their questions. Yes many people have left because they were burned out or didn't like the way they were treated. Now I'm not knocking them in any way whatsoever, there were many before me that helped in tremendous way and IndexU may not have still been around if it weren't for them. But I never asked if they ever approached the owner(s) and asked if they could be hired for support? I did, and this is where I am now. Supporting a program I like and getting paid for it. The pay isn't that much, but I would be here anyways so the pay is the bonus that will keep me here.

The programmer doesn't have time for the forum and support and programming and life, which is why I'm here. Dody still comes around of course and puts his word in when he needs to or has to.

If a user writes a mod or article no one has ever taken that away from them. They retain ownership of it 100% and I would fight if that were to change.

And yes, sometimes my answers are short and curt and sometimes downright rude. But I do answer people, I do tell them what they need to do, and I do get it done in a lot less time than I am required to. John requires me to respond (not necessarily answer) support requests within 24 hours. Most of my responses are done in less than 4-6 unless I'm asleep.

One thing I'd like to mention about what I said earlier. If a user wants to start a site about IndexU please make sure you ask Dody and/or John for permission to use the name first.

[esm]

...Reading the forum for just two-three hours today I've found several "indexu gurus" (my word choice) post "final forum message"s citing how they feel burned out and abused by both the IndexU company and the IndexU community)...

well, I spent 3 years "supporting" INDEXU and the bottom line for me was the involvement of the owner. Since the owner is now not the developer, I would say owner / developer if I were saying it now.

I still think it is true today despite the status of brucepr. Until the both owner/developer actively participate in the discussions of the forum, INDEXU will never replace Gossamer-Thread's LINKS SQL directory.

No offense to brucepr but I notice two things. First, brucepr is not the owner/developer. I'm sure others can say it better than me, but unless the owner/developer shows interest in the product no one else will. Folks want the owner/developer involved.

I knew INDEXU very well. I could solve most any programming question. I had created many MODs. All were free. But, folks still wanted the involvement of the developer. Along with others, I begged the developer to become involved. But he never did. Slowly, active involvement by other INDEXU users wilted. we all drifted away, never to really return.

Unless and until the owner/developer actively participates on a continuous, long-term basis, the forums here at INDEXU will languish.

Second, forum support is too much for one person. the answers from brucepr are getting shorter and shorter. and you can "read" the frustration in his responses. even he cannot get answers from the developer. and no telling where the owner is. I don't find fault with the efforts of brucepr but his is pretty much the same path followed by others who supported INDEXU in the past.

I guess therein is the problem. why should any of us support INDEUX if the owner/developer is not interested in supporting it? At least they get paid for it.

When I joined the INDEXU forum in April 2003, the developer was actively involved in supporting v3.2. AND THE FORUM WAS A HAPPENING PLACE. It was not unusual for several members to have 5 or 10 posts per day. In September he announced that he was beginning to work in v4. Well, for the next three years, he rarely visited the forum. And things began to die and the forum dried up.

but we have had this dicussion before. see http://www.nicecoder.com/community/s...ead.php?t=4753

while what gets said on the forum is important, who says it may be even more important.


.

[inspireme]

I agree with esm, indexU needs to grow up before users will come back to the forums... instead of trying to patch up the symptoms, look at the cause of the symptoms... The first major problem is that development is now done completly by dody (and in my opinion Zubby was fantastic at supporting and making some major steps forward for indexU) To go forward you need a dedicated developer on a wage.

Secondly, version releases should have distinct aims - a list of things that will be included in version 5.5 and then when they are completed, tested, and checked the version should be released... it seems that nobody has a clue when things will happen and everybody floats along, things get added when they feel like it, and a version is released when enough changes look like its worth releasing... if you had some focus, some plans and some time scale thigns would come together better.

And lastly the main reason nobody comes back to the forum :

Why would they? they create a directory, they dont get many visitors, they get bored of the site, disheartened and give up on it. I have been running my sites now for nearly 3 years, i have spent thousands of hours and thousands of dollars on them, i have learned php, and I have hired numerous programmers to help me with things. only last year did i see money coming in that makes me think its worth the work - I think in a few more years I will be able to make a living from it - a nice living with something I enjoy.

I doubt most people would enjoy this, maybe im weird in that I love solving problems and the challenge of making something work as i want it to - I would have left a long time ago if that wasn't the case... unless the forum offers something people need they wont come back, and unless they enjoy the forum they wont come back, and htey definitely wont come back if indexU hasnt been a good experience for them, and they got disheartened by the site they made.

[Bruceper]

Therein lies one of the single biggest issues that ANY script/site will face. Just because a user installs it doesn't mean it's going to make them money. They need to work at it, and put money into it for advertising/marketing.

Many users assume that just because they make a website it will make them money. That's not true and never has been. You say it took you time and money to make money, but that's how it works. People who choose not to do that won't see any return.

Most people won't enjoy that, you're right. They also don't understand that fact either.

[mpdaddy]

When I was looking around for a good link directory script, I literally spent weeks going back and forth between a few sites. I finally decided on this script mostly because it had most of the features I needed and I knew I could hack away at the rest to get additional functionality. One thing that really surprised me was the amount of mods and themes (or lack thereof) available. Don't get me wrong, I am currently working on my own mods to contribute and I know how long it takes to develop even a small mod. A few of you have several mods available for free and for sale and that is great. I just thought a script with this level of maturity would have more people creating mods and themes for users to use.

I agree that the owner and/or developer should have more involvment in the forums. It shows that they believe in their own product and actually care what their users (who all paid hard earned money) are saying and doing with the script.

I used to use OsCommerce for a retail computer hardware store I ran a few years ago. This script will never reach the same amount of people that they have because of the nature of the script. But by visiting their site and seeing how they have things organized, this script may be able to reach more people. They had a pretty good system of bug tracking and items to be completed prior to the next release. This script could benefit from that type of system. Also their forum is well layed out and they have a section to upload mods/add-ons.

Here are my suggestions:

The owners could modify a copy of IndexU to have a mods section. Users could upload their free mods in zip format, add a description of what it does and what version it is for, have them approved by admin, then added to the site for all users to download. The paid scripts would work the same way, except the user would have to visit the mod creators site to buy it. This would benefit the whole community as people would be able to find mods all in one place, much like Bruce's site.

Have a section where the developers have a set of goals for the next release and the items get checked off when completed. When all the items are complete, a new version is released. You would still have releases in between for bug fixes and that brings me to the next item.

The known bugs should be available to all IndexU users in the format above. We can see what bugs were reported, a good description of the bug and how to recreate it, and whether it has been fixed or not. If a bug is not fixed, another IndexU user might know how to fix it and could send the code to a developer so he can test it for himself. Maybe it will work, maybe not. I know that if I see a bug now that will affect my site, I am going to try to fix it on my own. Then what do I do with the code? Hmmm? The idea is to get the community as a whole involved in every aspect of the script development.

The forum should be layed out in a way so that people are not constantly posting in the wrong place. Most of the forum should also only be available to paid script owners only. For example, people who have not payed for the script should never be able see the mods forum where actual code is posted. Here is how I think it should be layed out.

Administrative section--------------------------
Announcements (non paying members will be able to view also)
Moderators Forum (Moderators / Administrators / Developers only)
Developers Forum (Developers only)

Non paying members area----------------------------
Pre-Sales Questions
Customer Reviews
Sites in Action
IndexU Lite


Paying members area --(HELP)----------------------------------
Technical issues and questions
Tutorials hints and tips
Bug Reports
Version 3.2 discussions

Paying members area --(Mods)----------------------------------
Blocks & Modifications
Mod Requests (free or paid)
Templates

Paying Members only ---(Other)----------------------------------
Customers Lounge (for real customers only)(off-topic)
Help Wanted
PHP MySql discussions
All other things here


That is everything I can think of off the top of my head.
"If you build it, they will come." Don't we all wish that were true?

[Bruceper]

I partly disagree with what you said.

I would never want any part of the forum disabled/hidden just because a user isn't a registered owner. I would agree that the content of those posts be hidden, but not the actual forum itself.

Hiding stuff and charging access (having to buy the script) would alienate users because they are not able to see what is available on the forum.

Users must have access to see what is there, but the content must only be available to licensed owners.

As for bugs, users have not a clue what a bug is. They break their site with bad coding and then post in the bugs sections and blame it on IndexU, not on themselves.

I hate to say it, but the level of competance for IndexU users on the forum is a lot lower than it is for OSCommerce. There are really only a few knowledgable people on this forum and the rest are end users, with very limited knowledge of PHP and/or HTML.

[allendevans]

IndexU does provide free updates to registered users, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Beta testing is done via the SVN version and every registered user is able to access it with their email address and license number. Contributions by users, as far as I know, have always had credit attributed to them.

Bruce,

Just a quick note while reading your message ... the "free updates" was a head nod to piet -- who requested free mods and updates be a central theme on the forum.

I disagree with that proposal, believing "freebies" of any sort to be a far distant second to high-quality documentation.

Allen.

[John Milton]

Hi EveryBody,

Long time I didn't come on forum and I'm sorry for this... But as ESM Say, I'm not a developper and I can't really help here except for bullshit (when it's not about development) and to be honest, some ours customers are more skilled as me for theses Pre-Sales questions.

That's why few month ago I hire (not full time job) Bruce for some help and I didn't regret it....... Bruce is good help on forum & for many new customer, and most important he help for keeping this forum alive the minimum !

Currently Dody is working on "IndexU Deluxe" version since 2 month and I'm personally sure this new release will be a good surprise for everybody as Dody is personnaly involved in this release (we fire zubby)

After this release, you will see new price policy (can't say more now) and we really hope this new strategy will help our company to make more money. First to make moe profit (I will not lie about that) but also to hire a team for support, developpement, etc.....

Until this new release from Dody, forum will stay in the actual condition.

I have my own opinion/idea about how to make forum more active, but most important : MORE INTERSTING. It's simply to make more professional involved on IndexU with the MONEY: because there is money to do with being Product Supporter of IndexU (Custom Work, Custom Integration, Custom Template, etc....)

By example, maybe Bruce can moderate a "Mod Contest" every month and let a developper make a "Real Marketplace" for IndexU Mod, Directory (Want to Sell, Want to Buy), Template, CustomWork. I think we also have to make a Section "Partner/Integrator" of professional who accept to be paid for Custom Work (many request) or Design, etc...... Can also make a MarketPlace of template !

Theses suggestion is idea, and idea is nothing without people to manage it, so if somebody is interested to make us an offer to make this idea real, they can simply contact Bruce !

Best Regards,
John Milton
Milton WorldWide Media LLC

[inspireme]

IndexU deluxe, i suppose will require us all to pay more... ? so much for unlimited product updates, lets retire the product and invent a new version with a different name.

I think your right, people should pay for updates, how else will indexU fund development, you dont have an unlimited amount of new customers you may as well make the most out of current customers. That said, if im paying to upgrade i would expect more, better product, faster support, real possitive upgrades. Of course, i have no idea if htis is what your going to do - pure guess work

[piet]

IndexU deluxe, i suppose will require us all to pay more... ? so much for unlimited product updates, lets retire the product and invent a new version with a different name.

I think your right, people should pay for updates, how else will indexU fund development, you dont have an unlimited amount of new customers you may as well make the most out of current customers. That said, if im paying to upgrade i would expect more, better product, faster support, real possitive upgrades. Of course, i have no idea if htis is what your going to do - pure guess work

so much for unlimited product updates?

i disagree here.

most people bought the script for this reason, i know i didt.

the part where i think you are right is for the new customers who want to buy a new license.

they will know the new TOS.

[mpdaddy]

I agree with Piet. Upgrades should be free to existing customers at the very least, especially when we are talking about bugfixes and security related updates. I would never buy a script that did not offer free upgrades for at least 1 year minimum. When I purchased the script it said "FREE LIFETIME Support & Updates".

I think a better solution is to:

1: Offer better support.
2: Offer more mods/add-ons (for a fee of course).
3: Restyle the forums and encourage more participation in the forums.
4: Take a friendlier approach to replies when people ask for help on the forum, even if they can find the answer by searching first. Nothing drives a customer away faster than a rude "try searching the forum before you ask" answer to their question. We all get sick of seeing the same question over and over, but you will never stop it, so live with it.
5: Take care of everything above, then think about increasing the price. I think you will find people willing to pay US $149, $199, $249 or even more for a script like this. I would pay $199 for a script like this with good support through the forums and a good amount of available mods.

[jromano]

I think that a Marketing Forum would be a great addition. It would help directory owners discuss the ins and outs of search engine optimization and marketing. Marketing knowledge is crucial for a directory owner. Since this field is full of information and opinions, I think it could become quite an interesting section of this community!